Philadelphia Style Hot Dogs and Burgers

[Steve Wertz]

On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 21:44:14 GMT, "Dusty Rhodes"

Everything you've seen is wrong. Unlike you, I have actually been to both
Pat's and Jim's. Many times. And about 100 other places in Philly. IOW,
having direct experience, I don't have to rely on what a bunch of goofs on
Usenet think.

Yes. Hundreds of pages and posts written by people in Philly are
wrong and you are right.

What people wrongly think is provolone is really white (un-dyed) American
cheese. Very common on the east coast. And unless cheese whiz now comes in
steam table pans and is poured on with a ladle, it's Velveeta, not Cheese
Whiz.

Cheez Whiz is almost the consistency of Velvetta. It needs to be
heated to be pourable/dipable.

Can anybody in Philadelphia help us out here? Is it Cheez Whiz,
or Velvetta? Is provalone an acceptable cheese?

BTW, the A&W Rootbeer stands here in Austin are advertising
"Philly-style" hot dogs and hamburgers. What constitutes a
Philly-style hot dog or hamburger?

-sw

[Dusty Rhodes]

Post by Steve Wertz
On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 21:44:14 GMT, "Dusty Rhodes"

Everything you've seen is wrong. Unlike you, I have actually been to
both Pat's and Jim's. Many times. And about 100 other places in
Philly. IOW, having direct experience, I don't have to rely on what
a bunch of goofs on Usenet think.

Yes. Hundreds of pages and posts written by people in Philly are
wrong and you are right.

What people wrongly think is provolone is really white (un-dyed)
American cheese. Very common on the east coast. And unless cheese
whiz now comes in steam table pans and is poured on with a ladle,
it's Velveeta, not Cheese Whiz.

Cheez Whiz is almost the consistency of Velvetta. It needs to be
heated to be pourable/dipable.
Can anybody in Philadelphia help us out here? Is it Cheez Whiz,
or Velvetta? Is provalone an acceptable cheese?

Looks like it's both. I'll give you the Cheese Whiz. I always took it to be
Velveeta 'cause it came from a gallon can on the griddle and not a
pressurized dispenser. I will readily admit I am not an expert on either,
though I do know a thing or 2 about Griddle Magic.

Cheers,

Dusty

[Steve Wertz]

On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 22:55:15 GMT, "Dusty Rhodes"

Post by Dusty Rhodes
Looks like it's both. I'll give you the Cheese Whiz. I always took it to be
Velveeta 'cause it came from a gallon can on the griddle and not a
pressurized dispenser. I will readily admit I am not an expert on either,
though I do know a thing or 2 about Griddle Magic.

You're thinking of Easy Cheese. Cheez Whiz always came in a jar
(#10 can in FoodService), but never in one of those spray-top
nozzle thingies.

-sw

[Dusty Rhodes]

Post by Steve Wertz
On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 22:55:15 GMT, "Dusty Rhodes"

Post by Dusty Rhodes
Looks like it's both. I'll give you the Cheese Whiz. I always took
it to be Velveeta 'cause it came from a gallon can on the griddle
and not a pressurized dispenser. I will readily admit I am not an
expert on either, though I do know a thing or 2 about Griddle Magic.

You're thinking of Easy Cheese. Cheez Whiz always came in a jar
(#10 can in FoodService), but never in one of those spray-top
nozzle thingies.

I thought commercially distributed Cheese Whiz came in one of those pump top
cans. Seems I remember the difference as being Cheese Whiz flows cold,
Velveeta has to be melted.

Cheers,

Dusty

[Steve Wertz]

On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 23:46:12 GMT, "Dusty Rhodes"

Post by Dusty Rhodes
I thought commercially distributed Cheese Whiz came in one of those pump top
cans. Seems I remember the difference as being Cheese Whiz flows cold,
Velveeta has to be melted.

Cheese Whiz was oringally developed in 1952 and distibuted in
hunks like Velvetta. In 1953 it changed to a jar. Apparently one
version is pourable at room temp. The one I have is the
"Microwave" version which is like Velveeta when at room temp, but
pourable when warm.

It may have come in a pump at one time, but the foodservice
version is just a #10 can - add your own pump. 7-11's and
Fuddruckers always have their pump cheese slightly warm.

-sw

[s***@temple.edu]

Post by Dusty Rhodes
I thought commercially distributed Cheese Whiz came in one of those pump top
cans. Seems I remember the difference as being Cheese Whiz flows cold,
Velveeta has to be melted.

Could be. If you're really curious, why not contact Kraft, or at
least check Kraft's web site to see if any info about it can be found
there.

[Hillary Israeli]

In <bu9v1t$fvf$***@cronkite.temple.edu>,
***@temple.edu <***@temple.edu> wrote:

*Dusty Rhodes <***@this parthotmail.com> wrote:
*
*> I thought commercially distributed Cheese Whiz came in one of those pump top
*> cans. Seems I remember the difference as being Cheese Whiz flows cold,
*> Velveeta has to be melted.
*
*Could be. If you're really curious, why not contact Kraft, or at
*least check Kraft's web site to see if any info about it can be found
*there.

Cheese Whiz is available for foodservice applications as a sauce in a can
or a bag, and as a spread in a can. :)

[Exile on Market Street]

Post by Dusty Rhodes

Post by Steve Wertz
Can anybody in Philadelphia help us out here? Is it Cheez Whiz,
or Velvetta? Is provalone an acceptable cheese?

Looks like it's both. I'll give you the Cheese Whiz. I always took it to be
Velveeta 'cause it came from a gallon can on the griddle and not a
pressurized dispenser. I will readily admit I am not an expert on either,
though I do know a thing or 2 about Griddle Magic.

Velveeta is solid at room temperature. Cheez Whiz can be spread at room
temperature. The two are almost, but not exactly, identical. The water
or whey content (Cheez Whiz has more) is one difference.

The orange glop used at most Philly cheesesteak emporia is Cheez Whiz.
--
-----------Sandy Smith, Exile on Market Street, Philadelphia----------
Managing Editor, _Penn Current_ / ***@pobox.upenn.edu
215.898.1423 / fax [phone] / http://pobox.upenn.edu/~smiths/
Got news? Got events? Got stories? Send 'em to ***@pobox.upenn.edu
If you see this line, the opinions expressed are mine, not Penn's

"I keep telling my husband, 'How bad is that? [Tim] Russert's not
getting it two times a day.'"
--Comedian/talk-show co-host Ali Wentworth, on reassuring hubby
George Stephanopolous that her remark about their marriage ("Do you
know of many strained marriages that make love twice a day?") was not
---------------all that scandalous (_Philadelphia Inquirer_ 9/30/03)--

[Hillary Israeli]

In <4r2dnc6ZB79q-ZXdRVn-***@io.com>,
Steve Wertz <***@cluemail.compost.invalid> wrote:

*On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 21:44:14 GMT, "Dusty Rhodes"
*<***@THIS PARThotmail.com> wrote:
*
*>Everything you've seen is wrong. Unlike you, I have actually been to both
*>Pat's and Jim's. Many times. And about 100 other places in Philly. IOW,
*>having direct experience, I don't have to rely on what a bunch of goofs on
*>Usenet think.
*
*Yes. Hundreds of pages and posts written by people in Philly are
*wrong and you are right.
*
*>What people wrongly think is provolone is really white (un-dyed) American
*>cheese. Very common on the east coast. And unless cheese whiz now comes in
*>steam table pans and is poured on with a ladle, it's Velveeta, not Cheese
*>Whiz.
*
*Cheez Whiz is almost the consistency of Velvetta. It needs to be
*heated to be pourable/dipable.
*
*Can anybody in Philadelphia help us out here? Is it Cheez Whiz,
*or Velvetta? Is provalone an acceptable cheese?

For a cheesesteak?? Dude, it's whiz all the way. Ok, some people will tell
you otherwise, and the most common substitution is probably provolone
(which is not white american cheese and which has never in my lifetime
been mistaken for same by anyone of my acquaintance in my presence, but
whatever) - but that makes an inferior sandwich.

[Steve Wertz]

Post by Hillary Israeli
For a cheesesteak?? Dude, it's whiz all the way. Ok, some people will tell
you otherwise, and the most common substitution is probably provolone
(which is not white american cheese and which has never in my lifetime
been mistaken for same by anyone of my acquaintance in my presence, but
whatever) - but that makes an inferior sandwich.

I just found a website that reviews cheesesteak shops all around
the coountry. Both Delaware SUb hop and Hoody's made the list -
turn out Hoody's is owned by a former DSS partner.

They mention that DSS at least gets their meat from Philly, and I
know that Hoody's does as well. They don't say where they get the
rolls from though - I somehow remember that Hoody's imported their
from Philly. Hoody's only offers the Boars Head Sharp Provolone
(which is a damn fine provolone, IMO). Not sure what Delaware
offers in terms of Cheese.

Anyway, just some random notes. Oh and the website for all the
displaced..."Philadelphians?":

http://www.bestcheesesteaks.com/cheesesteaks/tx.htm

-sw

[s***@temple.edu]

Post by Steve Wertz
Can anybody in Philadelphia help us out here? Is it Cheez Whiz,
or Velvetta? Is provalone an acceptable cheese?

Is it Cheez Whiz that goes on a Philly cheesesteak at places
such as Pat's, Geno's, and Jim's. Absolutely. I hate Cheez Whiz,
but I grew up in Philadelphia and I still work there, although
I live in the suburbs now. I never heard of using Velveeta on
a Philly cheesesteak.

Provalone is absolutely an acceptable cheese on a real Philly
cheesesteak, as is American cheese. In fact, Philly cheesesteaks
were being cooked by Pat's and other Philadelphia institutions
long before Kraft invented Cheez Whiz.

[Hillary Israeli]

In <bu9uvc$fvf$***@cronkite.temple.edu>,
***@temple.edu <***@temple.edu> wrote:

*Steve Wertz <***@cluemail.compost.invalid> wrote:
*
*> Can anybody in Philadelphia help us out here? Is it Cheez Whiz,
*> or Velvetta? Is provalone an acceptable cheese?
*
*Is it Cheez Whiz that goes on a Philly cheesesteak at places
*such as Pat's, Geno's, and Jim's. Absolutely. I hate Cheez Whiz,
*but I grew up in Philadelphia and I still work there, although
*I live in the suburbs now. I never heard of using Velveeta on
*a Philly cheesesteak.
*
*Provalone is absolutely an acceptable cheese on a real Philly
*cheesesteak, as is American cheese. In fact, Philly cheesesteaks

I knew someone would say that, despite the fact that it is Just Plain
Wrong :). Of course, the wrong kind of bun will ruin a cheesesteak too.

[s***@temple.edu]

Post by Hillary Israeli
I knew someone would say that, despite the fact that it is Just Plain
Wrong :). Of course, the wrong kind of bun will ruin a cheesesteak too.

What's wrong, exactly? I have eaten many a cheesesteak at Pat's that's
been topped with provalone or American cheese. Go there yourself and see.

[Exile on Market Street]

Post by s***@temple.edu

Post by Hillary Israeli
I knew someone would say that, despite the fact that it is Just Plain
Wrong :). Of course, the wrong kind of bun will ruin a cheesesteak too.

What's wrong, exactly? I have eaten many a cheesesteak at Pat's that's
been topped with provalone or American cheese. Go there yourself and see.

I've eaten many a cheesesteak topped with American cheese myself,
including some from Pat's. I may have even eaten one with provolone once.

But just as it's not authentic barbecue if it's not cooked slowly over
charcoal or wood, the true Philly cheesesteak experience requires Whiz.
How this came to pass when the cheesesteak predates Cheez Whiz by a
good two decades is another story.
--
-----------Sandy Smith, Exile on Market Street, Philadelphia----------
Managing Editor, _Penn Current_ / ***@pobox.upenn.edu
215.898.1423 / fax [phone] / http://pobox.upenn.edu/~smiths/
Got news? Got events? Got stories? Send 'em to ***@pobox.upenn.edu
If you see this line, the opinions expressed are mine, not Penn's

"I keep telling my husband, 'How bad is that? [Tim] Russert's not
getting it two times a day.'"
--Comedian/talk-show co-host Ali Wentworth, on reassuring hubby
George Stephanopolous that her remark about their marriage ("Do you
know of many strained marriages that make love twice a day?") was not
---------------all that scandalous (_Philadelphia Inquirer_ 9/30/03)--

[s***@temple.edu]

Post by Exile on Market Street
But just as it's not authentic barbecue if it's not cooked slowly over
charcoal or wood, the true Philly cheesesteak experience requires Whiz.
How this came to pass when the cheesesteak predates Cheez Whiz by a
good two decades is another story.

Then you are saying that until Cheez Whiz was available, that there
was no authentic Philly cheesesteak? If so, I think the folks over
at Geno's and Pat's would disagree with you, as do I.

Cheez Whiz is absolutely disgusting. More power to those who like
it, but to say that its a requirement on a true Philly cheesesteak
is simply wrong.

[Liz]

Post by Exile on Market Street

Post by s***@temple.edu

Post by Hillary Israeli
I knew someone would say that, despite the fact that it is Just Plain
Wrong :). Of course, the wrong kind of bun will ruin a cheesesteak too.

What's wrong, exactly? I have eaten many a cheesesteak at Pat's that's
been topped with provalone or American cheese. Go there yourself and see.

I've eaten many a cheesesteak topped with American cheese myself,
including some from Pat's. I may have even eaten one with provolone once.
But just as it's not authentic barbecue if it's not cooked slowly over
charcoal or wood, the true Philly cheesesteak experience requires Whiz.
How this came to pass when the cheesesteak predates Cheez Whiz by a
good two decades is another story.

I respectfully disagree with your statement. Having lived in the
Philadelphia area all of my 61 years, I can attest to the fact that
provolone or American cheese are just as acceptable...dare I say even
MORE acceptable?...as Cheese Whiz. Actually, in my vast experience of
years of sampling cheese steaks throughout the city and its surrounding
'burbs, I've come to realize that while Cheese Whiz is the cheese more
commonly used at the tourist trap places like Gino's and Jim's, etc.,
and therefore now thought by newbies to be the only cheese acceptable,
native Fluffyians like myself know that ONLY American (or in Italian
neighborhoods, provolone) cheese should be put on a cheesesteak, as God
intended it to be. <G>

Liz

[s***@temple.edu]

Post by Liz
I respectfully disagree with your statement. Having lived in the
Philadelphia area all of my 61 years, I can attest to the fact that
provolone or American cheese are just as acceptable...dare I say even
MORE acceptable?...as Cheese Whiz. Actually, in my vast experience of
years of sampling cheese steaks throughout the city and its surrounding
'burbs, I've come to realize that while Cheese Whiz is the cheese more
commonly used at the tourist trap places like Gino's and Jim's, etc.,
and therefore now thought by newbies to be the only cheese acceptable,
native Fluffyians like myself know that ONLY American (or in Italian
neighborhoods, provolone) cheese should be put on a cheesesteak, as God
intended it to be. <G>

Liz, you made an excellent point. Now that I think about it, Cheez
Whiz does appear to be more popular at the tourist trap kinds of
cheesesteak shops than any of the local neighborhood places.

[Liz]

Post by s***@temple.edu
Liz, you made an excellent point. Now that I think about it, Cheez
Whiz does appear to be more popular at the tourist trap kinds of
cheesesteak shops than any of the local neighborhood places.

Perhaps, Stan, that's because the CheezWhiz stuff is ore colorful than the
white cheeses? Whatever the reason, I just can't imagine going to my local
steak and hoagie shop and requesting Cheeze Whiz on my steak sandwich.

[Hillary Israeli]

In <bua1re$pt$***@cronkite.temple.edu>,
***@temple.edu <***@temple.edu> wrote:

*Hillary Israeli <***@hillary.net> wrote:
*
*> I knew someone would say that, despite the fact that it is Just Plain
*> Wrong :). Of course, the wrong kind of bun will ruin a cheesesteak too.
*
*What's wrong, exactly? I have eaten many a cheesesteak at Pat's that's
*been topped with provalone or American cheese. Go there yourself and see.

I have eaten them too. They aren't right. They don't taste right, is what
I'm saying. Gosh, if a Philadelphian can't have a strong opinion about the
making of a cheesesteak, what is this world coming to? :)

[s***@temple.edu]

Post by Hillary Israeli
I have eaten them too. They aren't right. They don't taste right, is what
I'm saying. Gosh, if a Philadelphian can't have a strong opinion about the
making of a cheesesteak, what is this world coming to? :)

Just because my opinion about Philly cheesesteaks differs from your opinion,
doesn't mine I do not feel strongly about the subject.

[Exile on Market Street]

Post by s***@temple.edu

Post by Hillary Israeli
I have eaten them too. They aren't right. They don't taste right, is what
I'm saying. Gosh, if a Philadelphian can't have a strong opinion about the
making of a cheesesteak, what is this world coming to? :)

Just because my opinion about Philly cheesesteaks differs from your opinion,
doesn't mine I do not feel strongly about the subject.

Killing both birds with one stone:

Of course you're supposed to feel strongly on this. If I were back in
my hometown, the question would be "Bryant's or Gates'?" (These are the
Pat's and Geno's of Kansas City barbecue, reputation-wise but not
location-wise; Bryant's has only one location, at 1727 Brooklyn; Gates'
nearest location is their original one at 1221 Brooklyn, five blocks
north.) And were you a Kansas Citian as well, no doubt you'd be arguing
strenuously for the superiority of Bryant's against my championing Gates'.

On to the other bird: obviously, if the cheesesteak predates Cheez Whiz,
then yes, there had to be an "authentic" Philly cheesesteak prior to the
introduction of the bright orange cheese spread/sauce. But as we should
understand from the march of technology, new advances can transform the
experience and take it to a level previously unheard of, and by doing so
become the new standard. I would submit to you that the marriage of
Cheez Whiz and thinly sliced grilled steak was such an event.

You, of course, will disagree, as is your right and entitlement. I
won't hold it against you.

But I will admit to one more heresy before I depart: I think that Utz
chips are *way* better than Herr's.
--
-----------Sandy Smith, Exile on Market Street, Philadelphia----------
Managing Editor, _Penn Current_ / ***@pobox.upenn.edu
215.898.1423 / fax [phone] / http://pobox.upenn.edu/~smiths/
Got news? Got events? Got stories? Send 'em to ***@pobox.upenn.edu
If you see this line, the opinions expressed are mine, not Penn's

"I keep telling my husband, 'How bad is that? [Tim] Russert's not
getting it two times a day.'"
--Comedian/talk-show co-host Ali Wentworth, on reassuring hubby
George Stephanopolous that her remark about their marriage ("Do you
know of many strained marriages that make love twice a day?") was not
---------------all that scandalous (_Philadelphia Inquirer_ 9/30/03)--

[James Andrews]

Post by Exile on Market Street
But I will admit to one more heresy before I depart: I think that Utz
chips are *way* better than Herr's.

That's not heresy. Pennsylvania makes a huge number of potato chip
brands; just because you like one over another isn't wrong. I prefer
Good's, with Gibble's a close second, and Utz are my favorite too for
chips not cooked in lard.

However there are a couple things to remember with this whole thread:

1. As Andrew said, labeling anything "philly" usually means it isn't

2. Also as Andrew said, if you want to get hardcore Philadelphian,
skip the cheesesteak (which has been done to death) and go for the
roast pork with sharp provolone and greens. I will not hesitate to
say that the roast pork sandwich is superior to the cheesesteak. When
visitors to town ask me what to get, that's the thing right there.

3. Whiz, american and provolone are all acceptable--the choice between
them is a matter of taste, and arguing about which is "right" is
pointless.

[Andrew Fenton]

Post by James Andrews
3. Whiz, american and provolone are all acceptable--the choice between
them is a matter of taste, and arguing about which is "right" is
pointless.

Shhh- you'll spoil it for the rest of us!

[Katie Krzyzanowski]

If you really want to go "Philly", eat Scrapple, or a pork-roll and cheese
sandwich (mind you, I don't eat either, but whatever)

Post by James Andrews

Post by Exile on Market Street
But I will admit to one more heresy before I depart: I think that Utz
chips are *way* better than Herr's.

That's not heresy. Pennsylvania makes a huge number of potato chip
brands; just because you like one over another isn't wrong. I prefer
Good's, with Gibble's a close second, and Utz are my favorite too for
chips not cooked in lard.
1. As Andrew said, labeling anything "philly" usually means it isn't
2. Also as Andrew said, if you want to get hardcore Philadelphian,
skip the cheesesteak (which has been done to death) and go for the
roast pork with sharp provolone and greens. I will not hesitate to
say that the roast pork sandwich is superior to the cheesesteak. When
visitors to town ask me what to get, that's the thing right there.
3. Whiz, american and provolone are all acceptable--the choice between
them is a matter of taste, and arguing about which is "right" is
pointless.

[s***@temple.edu]

Post by Katie Krzyzanowski
If you really want to go "Philly", eat Scrapple, or a pork-roll and cheese
sandwich (mind you, I don't eat either, but whatever)

Pork Roll is more a New Jersey food since it is made in Trenton.
I tried it once. It has little flavor. What flavor pork roll
has is mostly from salt. I tried scrapple once, but it was
home made at a folk festival. It was good, but I prefer bacon
or sausage for breakfast meats more than scrapple.

[James Andrews]

Post by s***@temple.edu

Post by Katie Krzyzanowski
If you really want to go "Philly", eat Scrapple, or a pork-roll and cheese
sandwich (mind you, I don't eat either, but whatever)

Pork Roll is more a New Jersey food since it is made in Trenton.
I tried it once. It has little flavor. What flavor pork roll
has is mostly from salt. I tried scrapple once, but it was
home made at a folk festival. It was good, but I prefer bacon
or sausage for breakfast meats more than scrapple.

It's saltariffic! mmmmmmmmmmmmm pork roll.

[Andrew Fenton]

Post by Katie Krzyzanowski
If you really want to go "Philly", eat Scrapple, or a pork-roll and cheese
sandwich (mind you, I don't eat either, but whatever)

Exactly. Truly regional foods: I doubt we'll ever see McScrapple sold from
coast to coast...

-Andrew

[Steve Wertz]

On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 09:09:39 -0500, "Katie Krzyzanowski"

Post by Katie Krzyzanowski
If you really want to go "Philly", eat Scrapple, or a pork-roll and cheese
sandwich (mind you, I don't eat either, but whatever)

I'm a big fan of scrapple (being from Pittsburgh and Harrisburg),
and even make my own several times a year, but the Taylor Pork
Roll just never turned me on. Lebanon Bologna rules, though.

-sw

[Exile on Market Street]

Post by Steve Wertz
I'm a big fan of scrapple (being from Pittsburgh and Harrisburg),
and even make my own several times a year, but the Taylor Pork
Roll just never turned me on. Lebanon Bologna rules, though.

Now *there's* a regional specialty I've *never* seen copied or even
imitated outside southeastern Pennsylvania and environs -- Lebanon
bologna, which I agree is fantastic, in either regular or sweet versions.
--
-----------Sandy Smith, Exile on Market Street, Philadelphia----------
Managing Editor, _Penn Current_ / ***@pobox.upenn.edu
215.898.1423 / fax [phone] / http://pobox.upenn.edu/~smiths/
Got news? Got events? Got stories? Send 'em to ***@pobox.upenn.edu
If you see this line, the opinions expressed are mine, not Penn's

"There is only one thing worse than being talked about, and that is
not being talked about."
---------------------------------------------------------Oscar Wilde--

[James Andrews]

Post by Exile on Market Street

Post by Steve Wertz
I'm a big fan of scrapple (being from Pittsburgh and Harrisburg),
and even make my own several times a year, but the Taylor Pork
Roll just never turned me on. Lebanon Bologna rules, though.

Now *there's* a regional specialty I've *never* seen copied or even
imitated outside southeastern Pennsylvania and environs -- Lebanon
bologna, which I agree is fantastic, in either regular or sweet versions.

I've said this before and I'll say it again: the closest thing in flavor
to lebanon bologna which most people have access to are landjaegers, which
are little german sausages which are kinda sweet and smoked like LB.

[w***@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu]

Newsgroups: austin.food,phl.food
Followup-To: phl.food

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

<grumble> <PLONK>

Lebanon Bologna rules...

a regional specialty I've *never* seen copied or even imitated outside
southeastern Pennsylvania... fantastic, either regular or sweet...

the closest thing in flavor to lebanon bologna: Landjaegers, little german
sausages which are kinda sweet and smoked like LB.

(just back from "The Reich") I had Landjaeger just last week.
They are (also) known as "Peitschenstecken" (in the Eastern parts of Suebia,
and as "Landjaeger" most everywhere else (I know of) in the German southwest.
(I liked the ones I got down near Freiburg best -- very good smoked flavor,
not too dry/hard... some concern as with jerky: you have to worry about your
teeth biting into some! :)

...they (used to?) sell'em at CM here in Austin... way, WAY, too overpriced
to tempt me though...

I suspect I might find them cheaper at the Wurstmarkt in Killeen next weekend
I'll check (and bring some back for "the next AF-party"... ain't there one
one coming up soon?!? well, I'll unpack and celebrate all alone then...
(I ought to go get the camera and take pictures of the loot I brought back,
...that should make some organizational, hungry talent busy... :-)

ah, hell's freezing over outside...
(written early this morning -- it "failed to post" though because that stupid
FollowUp header... <grumble>)

...I wonder what that might mean! Anyway, I build the first snowman in some
40+ years, I guess... (sorry, no photos -- it wasn't that grand anyways,
ou can't build much with 1 inch of snow...)

[Liz]

Either the OP is stoned or I am...in any case, I have no idea what he's
saying!!!

Post by w***@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu

Newsgroups: austin.food,phl.food
Followup-To: phl.food

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
<grumble> <PLONK>

Lebanon Bologna rules...

a regional specialty I've *never* seen copied or even imitated outside
southeastern Pennsylvania... fantastic, either regular or sweet...

the closest thing in flavor to lebanon bologna: Landjaegers, little german
sausages which are kinda sweet and smoked like LB.

(just back from "The Reich") I had Landjaeger just last week.
They are (also) known as "Peitschenstecken" (in the Eastern parts of Suebia,
and as "Landjaeger" most everywhere else (I know of) in the German southwest.
(I liked the ones I got down near Freiburg best -- very good smoked flavor,
not too dry/hard... some concern as with jerky: you have to worry about your
teeth biting into some! :)
...they (used to?) sell'em at CM here in Austin... way, WAY, too overpriced
to tempt me though...
I suspect I might find them cheaper at the Wurstmarkt in Killeen next weekend
I'll check (and bring some back for "the next AF-party"... ain't there one
one coming up soon?!? well, I'll unpack and celebrate all alone then...
(I ought to go get the camera and take pictures of the loot I brought back,
...that should make some organizational, hungry talent busy... :-)
ah, hell's freezing over outside...
(written early this morning -- it "failed to post" though because that stupid
FollowUp header... <grumble>)
...I wonder what that might mean! Anyway, I build the first snowman in some
40+ years, I guess... (sorry, no photos -- it wasn't that grand anyways,
ou can't build much with 1 inch of snow...)
--
/"\ ASCII... ._. ||"We the sheeple...Don't Mess With Penguins!"
\ / on Usenet /v\ || OPT-OUT is *E*V*I*L*
X ANYTHING ELSE /( )\ || I KILL-file top-posters / ignore posts with
/ \ IS BLOAT !! ^^ ^^ || only quoted text in the first screen...

[w***@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu]

Werner wrote...
Either the OP is stoned or I am...
in any case, I have no idea what he's saying!!!

you're not from around here, right ?!?

<chuckle> sorry, couldn't refrain... :)

[Liz]

Yup, I'm from around here. In fact, I've never lived more than 10 miles
from Germantown Hospital where I was born in 8/1942!!

Post by w***@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu

Werner wrote...
Either the OP is stoned or I am...
in any case, I have no idea what he's saying!!!

you're not from around here, right ?!?
<chuckle> sorry, couldn't refrain... :)

[bebopper]

I think the poster meant GermanY, not GermanTOWN ...

- bebopper

Post by Liz
Yup, I'm from around here. In fact, I've never lived more than 10 miles
from Germantown Hospital where I was born in 8/1942!!

Post by w***@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu

Werner wrote...
Either the OP is stoned or I am...
in any case, I have no idea what he's saying!!!

you're not from around here, right ?!?
<chuckle> sorry, couldn't refrain... :)

[w***@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu]

Post by Liz
Yup, I'm from around here. In fact, I've never lived more than 10 miles
from Germantown Hospital where I was born in 8/1942!!

I think the poster meant GermanY, not GermanTOWN...

<hehe> no, actually I meant (both) austin.food and the Central Texas Hill
Country (where lots of Germans roamed since the days of the buffalos...
in the last census more than 40% *admitted* to having German ancestors;
San Antonio was a German town around 1850, or so I've read. The reason
there was a war for Texas independence was that no self-respecting Spaniard
would immigrate to that hell-hole... in their opinion, and, in fact, for
that matter. Before the lakes were built in the mid 1930's, Central Texas
was a disaster area, with droughts and floods (following the occassional
rain storms) making life mostly a permanent misery... just to give you
phl.food folks a little tour, given that you accidentally landed here
(in austin.food)

p.s.: after a month criss-crossing the Black Forest with hardly *any* snow
anywhere, I found myself snowed in Saturday morning, couldn't make
it out of my drive-way even... (the last time we had a "snow storm"
like that was in 1985, when we had even more snow... i.e. more than
1 inch! Even my pool froze hard enough that the kids could walk on
it -- I didn't dare to)... Sunday morning it was near freezing still
but late afternoon I went for a sunset-sail on Lake Travis...
...in T-shirt, shorts and sandals, my usual year-round attire here!
ahh, back Home On The Range... but there was no live music at CM
last night, it appears that Sunday live music has gone the way of
the dinasaurs now, too. Damn the economy, damned climate changes,
damn that latest stupid war "over there" that *we* allowed ourselves
to get dragged into...

I'm becoming an isolatist (i.e. wishing for Texas Independence! :)

[Liz]

Oops, sorry....somehow I thought that phl.food was a site where Philadelphia
foodies congregated. My bad!!!

Post by w***@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu

Post by Liz
Yup, I'm from around here. In fact, I've never lived more than 10 miles
from Germantown Hospital where I was born in 8/1942!!

I think the poster meant GermanY, not GermanTOWN...

<hehe> no, actually I meant (both) austin.food and the Central Texas Hill
Country (where lots of Germans roamed since the days of the buffalos...
in the last census more than 40% *admitted* to having German ancestors;
San Antonio was a German town around 1850, or so I've read. The reason
there was a war for Texas independence was that no self-respecting Spaniard
would immigrate to that hell-hole... in their opinion, and, in fact, for
that matter. Before the lakes were built in the mid 1930's, Central Texas
was a disaster area, with droughts and floods (following the occassional
rain storms) making life mostly a permanent misery... just to give you
phl.food folks a little tour, given that you accidentally landed here
(in austin.food)
p.s.: after a month criss-crossing the Black Forest with hardly *any*

snow

Post by w***@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
anywhere, I found myself snowed in Saturday morning, couldn't make
it out of my drive-way even... (the last time we had a "snow storm"
like that was in 1985, when we had even more snow... i.e. more than
1 inch! Even my pool froze hard enough that the kids could walk on
it -- I didn't dare to)... Sunday morning it was near freezing still
but late afternoon I went for a sunset-sail on Lake Travis...
...in T-shirt, shorts and sandals, my usual year-round attire here!
ahh, back Home On The Range... but there was no live music at CM
last night, it appears that Sunday live music has gone the way of
the dinasaurs now, too. Damn the economy, damned climate changes,
damn that latest stupid war "over there" that *we* allowed ourselves
to get dragged into...
I'm becoming an isolatist (i.e. wishing for Texas Independence! :)
--
/"\ ASCII... ._. ||"We the sheeple...Don't Mess With Penguins!"
\ / on Usenet /v\ || OPT-OUT is *E*V*I*L*
X ANYTHING ELSE /( )\ || I KILL-file top-posters / ignore posts with
/ \ IS BLOAT !! ^^ ^^ || only quoted text in the first screen...

[Hillary Israeli]

In <q9KdnZ1ZEpY8L63dRVn-***@comcast.com>,
Liz <***@comcast.net> wrote:

*Oops, sorry....somehow I thought that phl.food was a site where Philadelphia
*foodies congregated. My bad!!!

Did you not notice that you have been replying to articles which were
crossposted to phl.food and austin.food or whatever it's called?

[bebopper]

Wasn't Linda Ronstadt one of those German-Texans ?? I always
wondered how the accordian made it's way to the Lone Star State.. I
guess that explains it.

Now why do they insist on calling Kielbasa "Ukranian Sausage"
at the BBQ joints around Houston ???

- bebopper

Post by w***@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
<hehe> no, actually I meant (both) austin.food and the Central Texas Hill
Country (where lots of Germans roamed since the days of the buffalos...
in the last census more than 40% *admitted* to having German ancestors;
San Antonio was a German town around 1850, or so I've read. The reason
there was a war for Texas independence was that no self-respecting Spaniard
would immigrate to that hell-hole... in their opinion, and, in fact, for
that matter. Before the lakes were built in the mid 1930's, Central Texas
was a disaster area, with droughts and floods (following the occassional
rain storms) making life mostly a permanent misery... just to give you
phl.food folks a little tour, given that you accidentally landed here
(in austin.food)
p.s.: after a month criss-crossing the Black Forest with hardly *any* snow
anywhere, I found myself snowed in Saturday morning, couldn't make
it out of my drive-way even... (the last time we had a "snow storm"
like that was in 1985, when we had even more snow... i.e. more than
1 inch! Even my pool froze hard enough that the kids could walk on
it -- I didn't dare to)... Sunday morning it was near freezing still
but late afternoon I went for a sunset-sail on Lake Travis...
...in T-shirt, shorts and sandals, my usual year-round attire here!
ahh, back Home On The Range... but there was no live music at CM
last night, it appears that Sunday live music has gone the way of
the dinasaurs now, too. Damn the economy, damned climate changes,
damn that latest stupid war "over there" that *we* allowed ourselves
to get dragged into...
I'm becoming an isolatist (i.e. wishing for Texas Independence! :)

[w***@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu]

hola, bebopper!

Post by bebopper
Wasn't Linda Ronstadt one of those German-Texans ??

you are thinking of German-Mexican mix?!? (you've seen her musical
concert special on PBS 'Songs Of My Father' etc? ...which I recommend
highly, btw? :)

I don't recall any mention of "German" -- or Texan, for that matter.
Seems she hails from --at least live in-- Arizona, or New Mexico, or...
well, she's from somewhere in occupied northern Mexico, that's for sure!
(and her ancestors had some part in the revolution of 1910, one got the
impression) ...but Ronstadt, yes, that has that je-ne-sais-quoi German
sound to it... ;-)

Post by bebopper
I always wondered how the accordian made it's way to the Lone Star State..
I guess that explains it.

it's the Austrians who supplied Mexico with some of emperors...

...but, otherwise, German, Czech and all kind of central European immigrants
to Texas brought accordeons with it -- in fact, I inherited one from my grand-
parents (but left it 'back there' never having learned to play it...)

Post by bebopper
Now why do they insist on calling Kielbasa "Ukranian Sausage" at the BBQ
joints around Houston ???

because the Ukraine used to be part of Poland... ?!?


you are welcome!

(and a virtual welcome to Austin; but, please, don't move here!
in fact, we'ld like to resettle some "back down there"... help! :-)

[James Andrews]

Post by w***@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu

Post by Liz
Yup, I'm from around here. In fact, I've never lived more than 10 miles
from Germantown Hospital where I was born in 8/1942!!

I think the poster meant GermanY, not GermanTOWN...

<hehe> no, actually I meant (both) austin.food and the Central Texas Hill
Country (where lots of Germans roamed since the days of the buffalos...
in the last census more than 40% *admitted* to having German ancestors;

Aw, my grandparents-in-law lived in Kerrville until December; I don't know
when I'm gonna have an excuse get back down to Austin and the hill country
again. Sigh...

[w***@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu]

Post by Liz

Either the OP is stoned or I am... I have no idea what he's saying!!!

<< you're not from around here, right ?!? <chuckle> sorry, couldn't refrain...

Post by Liz
Yup, I'm from around here. In fact, I've never lived more than
10 miles from Germantown Hospital where I was born in 8/1942!!

well, okey, Liz, let's explore the alternatives then...

I'm not. (what's an OP, btw?)

and what other "here" might *I* have been thinking of ?!? :)

...and, might you consider not top-posting? Pppphhleeeeaaasse !
(<chuckle> you know, Roger Rabbit... a switch from Casablanca... :)


apropos food:
the roast beef at Central Market tonight was the absolute *reddest* I've
ever had *anywhere* -- if anyone is a fan of 'such extremes' you may want
to hurry there in the morning, I bet there's still some left... (I got
there relatively late, so I'm sure there's some left of *that*...)

...and I'm sitting here demolishing a box of the Belgian (VanLys) Hazelnut
truffles (on sale at $4 for 200g, the stack between the quick check-out
lanes and the ice-cream freezer proved impossible to pass by and ignore.
I regret not having bought more, this won't last long... :)
Another irresistable sale item sits in front of the bulk teas, a box (of
PG Pyramid' 80's Tips tea bags, bundled with a 1-pound jar of Duerr's
coarse cut 1881 Seville Orange marmelade ($7)... ah, there is so much
less reason to go to Europe regularly than there used to be, pre CM days...

[Liz]

Sorry, but top posting is considered the style of choice in my little area
of cyberspace since the poster's address automatically goes on the top of
the message. IOW, if I responded below your post, my addy would still
appear at the top and it could possibly confuse anyone bored enough to
actually be reading what you and I are writing!!! <And OP stands for
Original Poster, BTW.>

Post by w***@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu

Post by Liz

Either the OP is stoned or I am... I have no idea what he's saying!!!

<< you're not from around here, right ?!? <chuckle> sorry, couldn't refrain...

Post by Liz
Yup, I'm from around here. In fact, I've never lived more than
10 miles from Germantown Hospital where I was born in 8/1942!!

well, okey, Liz, let's explore the alternatives then...
I'm not. (what's an OP, btw?)
and what other "here" might *I* have been thinking of ?!? :)
...and, might you consider not top-posting? Pppphhleeeeaaasse !
(<chuckle> you know, Roger Rabbit... a switch from Casablanca... :)
the roast beef at Central Market tonight was the absolute *reddest* I've
ever had *anywhere* -- if anyone is a fan of 'such extremes' you may want
to hurry there in the morning, I bet there's still some left... (I got
there relatively late, so I'm sure there's some left of *that*...)
...and I'm sitting here demolishing a box of the Belgian (VanLys) Hazelnut
truffles (on sale at $4 for 200g, the stack between the quick check-out
lanes and the ice-cream freezer proved impossible to pass by and ignore.
I regret not having bought more, this won't last long... :)
Another irresistable sale item sits in front of the bulk teas, a box (of
PG Pyramid' 80's Tips tea bags, bundled with a 1-pound jar of Duerr's
coarse cut 1881 Seville Orange marmelade ($7)... ah, there is so much
less reason to go to Europe regularly than there used to be, pre CM days...
--
/"\ ASCII... ._. ||"We the sheeple...Don't Mess With Penguins!"
\ / on Usenet /v\ || OPT-OUT is *E*V*I*L*
X ANYTHING ELSE /( )\ || I KILL-file top-posters / ignore posts with
/ \ IS BLOAT !! ^^ ^^ || only quoted text in the first screen...

[Hillary Israeli]

In <f-GdnYLEM-***@comcast.com>,
Liz <***@comcast.net> wrote:

*Sorry, but top posting is considered the style of choice in my little area
*of cyberspace since the poster's address automatically goes on the top of

Gaaaaah! Just because your software is broken is no reason to go around
violating long-standing Usenet communication conventions.

[w***@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu]

quoting Hillary Israeli
(a nice name! let's try to convince Liz of the errors of her ways. nicely! :)

Post by Hillary Israeli

Post by Hillary Israeli
*Sorry, but top posting is considered the style of choice in my little
area *of cyberspace

Dear Liz, please note that this is not *YOUR* little corner, but that you
joined a community which existed a long, LONG time before you even knew
about it... (I'm a *true* fossil of the net, so believe me, please ;-)
...and just because noone has bothered to *indoctrinate* you properly,
doesn't mean it's no longer *time to find out and learn about it* (proper
posting style, that is :)

Post by Hillary Israeli

Post by Hillary Israeli
since the poster's address automatically goes on the top...

Gaaaaah! Just because your software is broken is no reason to go around
violating long-standing Usenet communication conventions.

...so, listen to what Hillary (nice name!) said and, please, take the time
sometimes and famiarize yourself a little more with USEnet conventions.
(WWW.FAQ.ORG and WWW.USENET.ORG would be a good starting place, but there
are --surely-- *billions-and-billions* others by now... :)

Post by Hillary Israeli
"uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est."
not-so-newly minted veterinarian-at-large :)

heh! I'm just back from a re-acquaintance visit with an old classmate
of mine (last seen 35 years ago) who's a veterinarian, specializing in
horses only, living near Freiburg (southwestern Germany); we were just
sitting down for dinner last Sunday (wild boar piglet -- sorry, haven't
uploaded the photos yet) when he got an emergency call: horse with
stomach problems -- which had us rushing off into the night, across
some fields, and I got to appreciate what he does before dinner, way to
often: pull a big plastic bag over his arm up to over his shoulder, and
stick it... to pull out excrement by the handful...
I was tempted to take a picture, to accompany the one of the plate of
wild boar and red cabbage, but was afraid the horse might kick him when
spooked by the flash (in spite of the one front leg being held lifted
up to prevent... discourage?!!... that)

thought you might want to know -- stay tuned to austin.food for the
links to my trip/food pictures... ;-)

[Logan Shaw]

Post by Liz
Sorry, but top posting is considered the style of choice in my little area
of cyberspace since the poster's address automatically goes on the top of
the message.

I've been on Usenet for nearly 15 years now, and I wouldn't buy
that excuse for a dollar.

Your software likes to do it one way, but that doesn't really
have anything to do with the fact that proper trimming (notice
that I only included the three lines of your message that were
relevant?) and bottom-posting are what has been the socially-accepted
way to post on Usenet for the entire time that Usenet has existed.

- Logan

[s***@temple.edu]

Post by Liz
Sorry, but top posting is considered the style of choice in my little area
of cyberspace since the poster's address automatically goes on the top of
the message.

So I guess reading from top to bottom and left to right is preferred
in your little area of reality too? Top posting has got to be one of
the most annoying habits on Usenet.

[w***@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu]

Post by s***@temple.edu

Sorry, but top posting is considered the style of choice in my...

I guess reading from top to bottom and left to right is preferred
in your little area of reality too? Top posting has got to be one
of the most annoying habits on Usenet.

we have to blame Netscape for that, not Microsoft (btw).

those arrogant bastards wouldn't listen to feedback/input by their
elders...

...otherwise Microsoft would have gotten it right when they did Internet
Explorer (I'm willing to go out on a limb for that, though... well, never
mind! They haven't listened to warnings about security or anything else,
ever, and are infamous for similar arrogance and 'getting it wrong, always')

so, With A Little Help From My Friends... applies to KILL-files, too,
though Ringo had no idea at the time...

[n***@somewhere.org]

Post by w***@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu

Post by s***@temple.edu

Sorry, but top posting is considered the style of choice in my...

I guess reading from top to bottom and left to right is preferred
in your little area of reality too? Top posting has got to be one
of the most annoying habits on Usenet.

we have to blame Netscape for that, not Microsoft (btw).
those arrogant bastards wouldn't listen to feedback/input by their
elders...
...otherwise Microsoft would have gotten it right when they did Internet
Explorer (I'm willing to go out on a limb for that, though... well, never
mind! They haven't listened to warnings about security or anything else,
ever, and are infamous for similar arrogance and 'getting it wrong, always')
so, With A Little Help From My Friends... applies to KILL-files, too,
though Ringo had no idea at the time...

Actually, that is not completely correct. Netscape used bottom posting
as the default 'til somewhere in the middle of the 3.x series of
browsers. I guess they realized they were toast and went along with MS,
changing the default to top posting.

Oh, and I.E. is a browser, not a mail/news client.

Notice from my headers, I still use Netscape, but I know how to edit
"Preferences" to change it to bottom post as the default.

Here are a few links to Usenet etiquette. I know you don't need them,
Werner, but maybe Liz will have a look...
http://www.caliburn.nl/topposting.html
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/usenet/brox.html
http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html

[bebopper]

Post by n***@somewhere.org

Post by w***@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu

Post by s***@temple.edu

Sorry, but top posting is considered the style of choice in my...

I guess reading from top to bottom and left to right is preferred
in your little area of reality too? Top posting has got to be one
of the most annoying habits on Usenet.

we have to blame Netscape for that, not Microsoft (btw).
those arrogant bastards wouldn't listen to feedback/input by their
elders...
...otherwise Microsoft would have gotten it right when they did Internet
Explorer (I'm willing to go out on a limb for that, though... well, never
mind! They haven't listened to warnings about security or anything else,
ever, and are infamous for similar arrogance and 'getting it wrong, always')
so, With A Little Help From My Friends... applies to KILL-files, too,
though Ringo had no idea at the time...

Actually, that is not completely correct. Netscape used bottom posting
as the default 'til somewhere in the middle of the 3.x series of
browsers. I guess they realized they were toast and went along with MS,
changing the default to top posting.
Oh, and I.E. is a browser, not a mail/news client.
Notice from my headers, I still use Netscape, but I know how to edit
"Preferences" to change it to bottom post as the default.
Here are a few links to Usenet etiquette. I know you don't need them,
Werner, but maybe Liz will have a look...
http://www.caliburn.nl/topposting.html
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/usenet/brox.html
http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html

Allow me to make this my public apology to all those I have
offended by indiscriminately top-bottom and in-between posting all
these years. There are a LOT of RFCs out there, and somewhere along
the way I guess I just missed 1855 !!!!

Truth to tell, I'm not really bothered by where the responses
to posts go, as long as I can pretty quickly figure out what the
poster is trying to get across. Actually, I don't pay THAT much
attention to top/bottom in my most intimate human interactions, so to
REALLY give a crap on usenet would make me feel like a much bigger
nerd that I really am.

These little scrolly wheels on mice are amazing things, that
allow you to scroll WAY up or WAY down on a message which really cuts
down on the fatigue I'm sure many people experience when trying to
decipher the original reference in a thread like this with 100+ posts.

Maybe if more people like "nospam" above would start new
threads when things get REALLY Off Topic, the thread title would give
a fair overview of the conversation requiring less deciphering of
references to figure out what a post means ...


- bebopper

[Hillary Israeli]

In <c0q77g$i78$***@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>,
***@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu <***@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu> wrote:

*>>> Either the OP is stoned or I am... I have no idea what he's saying!!!
*<< you're not from around here, right ?!? <chuckle> sorry, couldn't refrain...
*> Yup, I'm from around here. In fact, I've never lived more than
*> 10 miles from Germantown Hospital where I was born in 8/1942!!
*
*well, okey, Liz, let's explore the alternatives then...
*
*I'm not. (what's an OP, btw?)

Original poster.

*and what other "here" might *I* have been thinking of ?!? :)

The wrong "here" for phl.food, apparently. :)

[snipped non-Philadelphian food discussion!]

Here, have a cheesesteak.

-h.

[w***@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu]

FollowUp-To: phl.food

<eek!> Don't do that, please!

(I'ld end up in a *here* that I didn't want to be in,
don't quite feel to belong... ;-)


quoting Hillary

Either the OP is stoned...

<<<< you're not from around here, right ?!? <chuckle>...

Yup, I'm from around here, never lived more than 10 miles from Germantown
Hospital where I was born in 8/1942!!

<< well, okey, Liz, let's explore the alternatives then...
<< I'm not. (what's an OP, btw?)

Original poster.

thanks, Hillary (Liz got tongue-tied, apparently :)


<< and what other "here" might *I* have been thinking of ?!? :)

The wrong "here" for phl.food, apparently. :)

yep, yep, yep... but let's not tar-and-feather whoever it was that
thought it cute to cross-post an austin.food discussion thread to
phl.food -- it's nice meeting you guys! Come visit sometimes!
(please fight the urge of moving here afterwards... :)

[snipped non-Philadelphian food discussion!]

<ouch>

Here, have a cheesesteak.

I've not liked (either taste or price of) any that I've tried here...

...though I'm a sucker for the *idea* of how it's made.

hmmm, I got this super-bloody roast beef at CM last night, I bet I
could make one myself that tastes right. I'll share with the first
who emails me the (proper/traditional) recipe !
(well, okey, I'll take a digital snapshot and share with everyone here,
if you insist! :)

[Steve Wertz]

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 18:00:51 +0000 (UTC),

Post by w***@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
yep, yep, yep... but let's not tar-and-feather whoever it was that
thought it cute to cross-post an austin.food discussion thread to
phl.food

<Blushing and batting eyebrows>

It was actually unusually civilized for such a long thread.... up
until yesterday, that is.

-sw

[James Andrews]

Post by w***@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu

Newsgroups: austin.food,phl.food
Followup-To: phl.food

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
<grumble> <PLONK>

Sorry about that--I thought the discussion had veered into
Philadelphia-only territory, and maybe the Austin folks wouldn't care
anymore.

Post by w***@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
(just back from "The Reich") I had Landjaeger just last week.
They are (also) known as "Peitschenstecken" (in the Eastern parts of Suebia,
and as "Landjaeger" most everywhere else (I know of) in the German southwest.
(I liked the ones I got down near Freiburg best -- very good smoked flavor,
not too dry/hard... some concern as with jerky: you have to worry about your
teeth biting into some! :)

Interesting. The ones I've had as made by the Pennsylvania Dutch folks
generally aren't very hard.

[bebopper]

GRANDMA UTZ are cooked in lard .. I'd agree on Goods and
Gibbles vs. regular Utz , but when grandma makes 'em in good old
pigfat, they're up there with the "G" makers.

On the cheese topic, I'd venture to say Provolone is fine on a
Cheesesteak HOAGIE (which is another animal all together) Whiz is my
first choice since it is so tangy (but don't SALT the sammy if you
ordered Whiz.) American is a good second choice.

Just don't be like John Kerry, and order SWISS !!! See what happens
to HIM in the PA primary with a faux pas like that !!1

- bebopper

Post by James Andrews

Post by Exile on Market Street
But I will admit to one more heresy before I depart: I think that Utz
chips are *way* better than Herr's.

That's not heresy. Pennsylvania makes a huge number of potato chip
brands; just because you like one over another isn't wrong. I prefer
Good's, with Gibble's a close second, and Utz are my favorite too for
chips not cooked in lard.
1. As Andrew said, labeling anything "philly" usually means it isn't
2. Also as Andrew said, if you want to get hardcore Philadelphian,
skip the cheesesteak (which has been done to death) and go for the
roast pork with sharp provolone and greens. I will not hesitate to
say that the roast pork sandwich is superior to the cheesesteak. When
visitors to town ask me what to get, that's the thing right there.
3. Whiz, american and provolone are all acceptable--the choice between
them is a matter of taste, and arguing about which is "right" is
pointless.

[Steve Wertz]

On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 13:55:11 -0500, bebopper

Post by bebopper
GRANDMA UTZ are cooked in lard .. I'd agree on Goods and
Gibbles vs. regular Utz , but when grandma makes 'em in good old
pigfat, they're up there with the "G" makers.

Zapp's Potato Chips Rule, and I'm not even from Louisiana.

Wise is Pennsylvania, isn't it? I remember they had a huge plant
somewhere around Pittsburgh. Though the potato chips are nothing
to write home about, the Cheez Waffies are worth their weight in
gold, IMO.

-sw

[s***@temple.edu]

Post by bebopper
Just don't be like John Kerry, and order SWISS !!! See what happens
to HIM in the PA primary with a faux pas like that !!1

John Kerry ordered Swiss cheese on a Philly cheesesteak ... and no one
behind the counter at the cheesesteak shop corrected him? What're the odds?

[Dubinse]

Post by s***@temple.edu
John Kerry ordered Swiss cheese on a Philly cheesesteak

I don't know whether Dennis Kuccinich
will stop in, but I will be happy to serve
him a "cheese steak" made with (1)
Wow it's Not Beef marinated soy strips
and (2) Galaxy Veggie Slises (either
Swiss or Cheddar style) garnished with
alfalfa sprouts. Yumm! and it's kosher
too!!
Stephen Dubin VMD

[s***@temple.edu]

Post by Dubinse

Post by s***@temple.edu
John Kerry ordered Swiss cheese on a Philly cheesesteak

I don't know whether Dennis Kuccinich
will stop in, but I will be happy to serve
him a "cheese steak" made with (1)
Wow it's Not Beef marinated soy strips
and (2) Galaxy Veggie Slises (either
Swiss or Cheddar style) garnished with
alfalfa sprouts. Yumm! and it's kosher
too!!

To each his own, but to me, replacing those
ingredients with paper seems a lot more tasty
and much less expensive.

[Dubinse]

Post by s***@temple.edu
To each his own, but to me, replacing those
ingredients with paper seems a lot more tasty
and much less expensive.

Are you advocating replacing the soy
substitutes with paper to make them
more tasty and less expensive or
describing the soy substitutes as "paper?"

Although lower expense would, IMHO, be
quite desirable; the susbstitute meat and
cheese items I described are quite a bit
more expensive. This may be due to the
artificially low price of meat and dairy
when the true environmental and energy
cost of their production do not appear in
the price tag. The term "paper" implies
an inert material devoid of nutritional value.
In actual fact, the soy substitutes have
abundant protein, much less fat and other
nutritional advantages.

Now to step dpwn from my soapbox
(pure Castille soap) an ponder Proverbs
chapter 26, verses 4 and 5.


Stephen Dubin VMD

[s***@temple.edu]

Post by Exile on Market Street
On to the other bird: obviously, if the cheesesteak predates Cheez Whiz,
then yes, there had to be an "authentic" Philly cheesesteak prior to the
introduction of the bright orange cheese spread/sauce. But as we should
understand from the march of technology, new advances can transform the
experience and take it to a level previously unheard of, and by doing so
become the new standard. I would submit to you that the marriage of
Cheez Whiz and thinly sliced grilled steak was such an event.
You, of course, will disagree, as is your right and entitlement. I
won't hold it against you.

Thanks. I truly detest Cheez Whiz. All it does is run down the side of
the cheesesteak. The flavor tastes a little like what I suspect elmer's
glue would taste like and loaded with salt. I prefer real cheese on
my "cheese" steaks. That's why they are called "cheese" steaks in the
first place, but to each his or her own. I honestly don't care what
other people put on their cheesesteaks as long as I can get them the
way I want which is with provalone (sometimes American), sliced 'shrooms,
and pizza sauce.

Post by Exile on Market Street
But I will admit to one more heresy before I depart: I think that Utz
chips are *way* better than Herr's.

I don't eat potato chips often, so I never thought about it. I am
heading over to a friend's house in a few hours to play poker and
watch the Eagles game so I will pick up a bag of Utz and Herrs chips
and put them to the taste test.

[Hillary Israeli]

In <bueg1d$8d3$***@cronkite.temple.edu>,
***@temple.edu <***@temple.edu> wrote:

*Exile on Market Street <***@pobox.upenn.edu> wrote:
*
*> On to the other bird: obviously, if the cheesesteak predates Cheez Whiz,
*> then yes, there had to be an "authentic" Philly cheesesteak prior to the
*> introduction of the bright orange cheese spread/sauce. But as we should
*> understand from the march of technology, new advances can transform the
*> experience and take it to a level previously unheard of, and by doing so
*> become the new standard. I would submit to you that the marriage of
*> Cheez Whiz and thinly sliced grilled steak was such an event.
*
*> You, of course, will disagree, as is your right and entitlement. I
*> won't hold it against you.
*
*Thanks. I truly detest Cheez Whiz. All it does is run down the side of
*the cheesesteak. The flavor tastes a little like what I suspect elmer's
*glue would taste like and loaded with salt. I prefer real cheese on

Well, just a couple of comments on that since the Eagles are busy losing
and I can either respond to this, or sit with my head in my hands and cry.

1. I have never experienced Cheez Whiz running down the side of my
cheesesteak, and I have eaten quite a few whiz-laden cheesesteaks. Perhaps
it is, as they say, all in the wrist? :)

2. I have tasted Elmer's glue, and it does not taste like Cheez Whiz.

-h.

[s***@temple.edu]

Post by Hillary Israeli
1. I have never experienced Cheez Whiz running down the side of my
cheesesteak, and I have eaten quite a few whiz-laden cheesesteaks. Perhaps
it is, as they say, all in the wrist? :)

Perhaps.

Post by Hillary Israeli
2. I have tasted Elmer's glue, and it does not taste like Cheez Whiz.

I will have to take your word for it. Either way, what Cheez Whiz
does not taste like is cheese!

[Exile on Market Street]

Post by s***@temple.edu
Thanks. I truly detest Cheez Whiz. All it does is run down the side of
the cheesesteak. The flavor tastes a little like what I suspect elmer's
glue would taste like and loaded with salt. I prefer real cheese on
my "cheese" steaks. That's why they are called "cheese" steaks in the
first place, but to each his or her own. I honestly don't care what
other people put on their cheesesteaks as long as I can get them the
way I want which is with provalone (sometimes American), sliced 'shrooms,
and pizza sauce.

^^^^^^^^^^^^

I will only point out that once that last ingredient is added to the
mix, you no longer *technically* have a "cheesesteak", you have a "pizza
steak."

Apropos of nothing else:

"Standing in line to have a cheesesteak outdoors when it's 15 degrees!
You just can't get more Philadelphian." --My friend Chris Ragsdale,
when we did just that at Pat's on the way back to my place from the 10th
and Reed Acme a few weeks back

Post by s***@temple.edu

Post by Exile on Market Street
But I will admit to one more heresy before I depart: I think that Utz
chips are *way* better than Herr's.

I don't eat potato chips often, so I never thought about it. I am
heading over to a friend's house in a few hours to play poker and
watch the Eagles game so I will pick up a bag of Utz and Herrs chips
and put them to the taste test.

Since some time has elapsed since this exchange, I assume you've had the
opportunity to conduct your taste test. So--who came out on top?
--
-----------Sandy Smith, Exile on Market Street, Philadelphia----------
Managing Editor, _Penn Current_ / ***@pobox.upenn.edu
215.898.1423 / fax [phone] / http://pobox.upenn.edu/~smiths/
Got news? Got events? Got stories? Send 'em to ***@pobox.upenn.edu
If you see this line, the opinions expressed are mine, not Penn's

"There is only one thing worse than being talked about, and that is
not being talked about."
---------------------------------------------------------Oscar Wilde--

[bebopper]

I have been ordering cheesesteaks with fried onions and sauce
since I was a kid. As far as I know what makes a pizza steak a pizza
steak is mozzarella cheese, and a short trip to the oven to melt same.

IMO, taking what SHOULD be a moist, perfectly chewy roll and
drying it out in an oven in order to melt some bland, commercial-grade
mozz doesn not make a great sandwich.

Fine for a meatball sub, or even an italian grinder (any other
cultures cook lettuce ??), but the texture of the steak roll is such
an essential part of the whole deal, I almost NEVER order a
cheesesteak in a pizza joint 'cause lots of these guys are genetically
engineered to melt cheese in ovens.

Joe's Pizza on 16th is an exception. One of the great unsung
cheesesteaks in the city !!

- bebopper



On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 00:58:55 -0500, Exile on Market Street

Post by Exile on Market Street
I will only point out that once that last ingredient is added to the
mix, you no longer *technically* have a "cheesesteak", you have a "pizza
steak."

[s***@temple.edu]

Post by bebopper
Joe's Pizza on 16th is an exception. One of the great unsung
cheesesteaks in the city !!

Really? I have eaten pizza there several times, but never anything
else from Joe's Pizza's menu. Next time I am in that area, which is
not very often, I will try to stop by Joe's to get a cheese steak there.

[bebopper]

Well worth it !! Their pizza is pretty good too, but I used to
work right down the street for a number of years, and had the luxury
of being able to sample most downtown cheesesteaks.

There was a place right next door called "Philly Cheesesteak",
but they would get so busy at lunch that they would grill 10 pounds of
meat at a time in advance, and everyone ended up with steamed meat.
This still happens at D'Allesandro's in Roxborough at high noon.

Joe's cooks to order, and it's worth the wait ...

Cheers,
bebopper

Post by s***@temple.edu

Post by bebopper
Joe's Pizza on 16th is an exception. One of the great unsung
cheesesteaks in the city !!

Really? I have eaten pizza there several times, but never anything
else from Joe's Pizza's menu. Next time I am in that area, which is
not very often, I will try to stop by Joe's to get a cheese steak there.

[s***@temple.edu]

Post by Exile on Market Street
Since some time has elapsed since this exchange, I assume you've had the
opportunity to conduct your taste test. So--who came out on top?

Actually, I did try to do a taste test between Utz and Herr's potato
chips, but I couldn't find any Utz chips at the Acme where I went on
my way to my friend's house to watch the Eagles game. I did find Utz
chips at Superfresh two weeks later, but I forgot about the test.

[bebopper]

If you want the true Utz experience, don't settle for less than
GRANDMA UTZ (which are cooked in lard as God intended them to be.)

Herr's are cooked in vegetable oil (I think probably cottonseed, or
some other such horrible tasteless variety.

Happy crunching !!

bebopper

Post by s***@temple.edu

Post by Exile on Market Street
Since some time has elapsed since this exchange, I assume you've had the
opportunity to conduct your taste test. So--who came out on top?

Actually, I did try to do a taste test between Utz and Herr's potato
chips, but I couldn't find any Utz chips at the Acme where I went on
my way to my friend's house to watch the Eagles game. I did find Utz
chips at Superfresh two weeks later, but I forgot about the test.

[James Andrews]

Post by bebopper
If you want the true Utz experience, don't settle for less than
GRANDMA UTZ (which are cooked in lard as God intended them to be.)
Herr's are cooked in vegetable oil (I think probably cottonseed, or
some other such horrible tasteless variety.

Grandma Utz are pretty good, but check out either Good's or Gibble's for
the best lard-cooked chips.

[s***@temple.edu]

Post by James Andrews

Post by bebopper
If you want the true Utz experience, don't settle for less than
GRANDMA UTZ (which are cooked in lard as God intended them to be.)
Herr's are cooked in vegetable oil (I think probably cottonseed, or
some other such horrible tasteless variety.

Grandma Utz are pretty good, but check out either Good's or Gibble's for
the best lard-cooked chips.

I never heard of Good's or Gibble's chips. Where are they sold?

[James Andrews]

Post by s***@temple.edu

Post by James Andrews

Post by bebopper
If you want the true Utz experience, don't settle for less than
GRANDMA UTZ (which are cooked in lard as God intended them to be.)
Herr's are cooked in vegetable oil (I think probably cottonseed, or
some other such horrible tasteless variety.

Grandma Utz are pretty good, but check out either Good's or Gibble's for
the best lard-cooked chips.

I never heard of Good's or Gibble's chips. Where are they sold?

Unfortunately, only upstate, to my knowledge, although I'm pretty sure you
can get them on line.

But bebopper is right, Grandma Utz's are the closest you can easily get
here. I think they're too thick, though.

[bebopper]

http://members3.boardhost.com/taquitos.net/

Here is an intersting site related to snack foods.....(especially chip
varieties)

- bebopper

Post by James Andrews

Post by s***@temple.edu

Post by James Andrews

Post by bebopper
If you want the true Utz experience, don't settle for less than
GRANDMA UTZ (which are cooked in lard as God intended them to be.)
Herr's are cooked in vegetable oil (I think probably cottonseed, or
some other such horrible tasteless variety.

Grandma Utz are pretty good, but check out either Good's or Gibble's for
the best lard-cooked chips.

I never heard of Good's or Gibble's chips. Where are they sold?

Unfortunately, only upstate, to my knowledge, although I'm pretty sure you
can get them on line.
But bebopper is right, Grandma Utz's are the closest you can easily get
here. I think they're too thick, though.

[bebopper]

I saw in the supermarket tomnight that Herr's has a Homestyle brand
that is cooked in lard. I'll try them soem time this week and report

... I agree Grandma has a heavy hand slicing the potatoes.

- bebopper

Post by James Andrews

Post by s***@temple.edu

Post by James Andrews

Post by bebopper
If you want the true Utz experience, don't settle for less than
GRANDMA UTZ (which are cooked in lard as God intended them to be.)
Herr's are cooked in vegetable oil (I think probably cottonseed, or
some other such horrible tasteless variety.

Grandma Utz are pretty good, but check out either Good's or Gibble's for
the best lard-cooked chips.

I never heard of Good's or Gibble's chips. Where are they sold?

Unfortunately, only upstate, to my knowledge, although I'm pretty sure you
can get them on line.
But bebopper is right, Grandma Utz's are the closest you can easily get
here. I think they're too thick, though.

[Katie Krzyzanowski]

Just saw Gibbles tonight at the Giant in Conshohocken (in the shopping
center with B&N, Lowes, Ross, etc) - Chemical Road

Post by s***@temple.edu

Post by James Andrews

Post by bebopper
If you want the true Utz experience, don't settle for less than
GRANDMA UTZ (which are cooked in lard as God intended them to be.)
Herr's are cooked in vegetable oil (I think probably cottonseed, or
some other such horrible tasteless variety.

Grandma Utz are pretty good, but check out either Good's or Gibble's for
the best lard-cooked chips.

I never heard of Good's or Gibble's chips. Where are they sold?

[bebopper]

I think that's referred to as the Metroplex ???

Thanks !
- bebopper

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 21:03:21 -0500, "Katie Krzyzanowski"

Post by Katie Krzyzanowski
Just saw Gibbles tonight at the Giant in Conshohocken (in the shopping
center with B&N, Lowes, Ross, etc) - Chemical Road

Post by s***@temple.edu

Post by James Andrews

Post by bebopper
If you want the true Utz experience, don't settle for less than
GRANDMA UTZ (which are cooked in lard as God intended them to be.)
Herr's are cooked in vegetable oil (I think probably cottonseed, or
some other such horrible tasteless variety.

Grandma Utz are pretty good, but check out either Good's or Gibble's for
the best lard-cooked chips.

I never heard of Good's or Gibble's chips. Where are they sold?

[Hillary Israeli]

In <***@4ax.com>,
bebopper <***@nospam.org> wrote:

*I think that's referred to as the Metroplex ???

Yes, it is the Metroplex, but it is "referred to" as my home away from
home, actually :)

[bebopper]

Would that be the Metroplex in general, or the snack aisle of
Giant, specifically ??

- bebopper

Post by Hillary Israeli
*I think that's referred to as the Metroplex ???
Yes, it is the Metroplex, but it is "referred to" as my home away from
home, actually :)

[Liz]

Nope...that completely escaped my perception.

Post by bebopper
I think that's referred to as the Metroplex ???
Thanks !
- bebopper
On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 21:03:21 -0500, "Katie Krzyzanowski"

Post by Katie Krzyzanowski
Just saw Gibbles tonight at the Giant in Conshohocken (in the shopping
center with B&N, Lowes, Ross, etc) - Chemical Road

Post by s***@temple.edu

Post by James Andrews

Post by bebopper
If you want the true Utz experience, don't settle for less than
GRANDMA UTZ (which are cooked in lard as God intended them to be.)
Herr's are cooked in vegetable oil (I think probably cottonseed, or
some other such horrible tasteless variety.

Grandma Utz are pretty good, but check out either Good's or Gibble's for
the best lard-cooked chips.

I never heard of Good's or Gibble's chips. Where are they sold?

[bebopper]

I don't see Goods or Gibbles much unless I'm in some
god-forsaken place like Reading or at a Farmer's Market. I used to
get Gibbles in Hagerstown Md. when I visited relatives there. Grandma
Utz is the next best thing that is pretty ubiquitous in the Philly
area.

- bebopper

Post by James Andrews

Post by bebopper
If you want the true Utz experience, don't settle for less than
GRANDMA UTZ (which are cooked in lard as God intended them to be.)
Herr's are cooked in vegetable oil (I think probably cottonseed, or
some other such horrible tasteless variety.

Grandma Utz are pretty good, but check out either Good's or Gibble's for
the best lard-cooked chips.

[ADC69]

Post by Exile on Market Street
I will only point out that once that last ingredient is added to the
mix, you no longer *technically* have a "cheesesteak", you have a "pizza
steak."

Not at all. Pizza steaks and cheese steaks w/ sauce are 2 totally different
animals. I like my cheesesteaks w/ sauce, with AMERICAN cheese, and the roll
untoasted. When I order a steak with sauce at an unfamiliar place and they say
a pizza steak, I immediately say forget the sauce, otherwise I usually end up
with a steak with mozz cheese, sauce, and a hardened roll right from the oven.
Dalessandro's and Fiesta know how to make a cheese steak w/ sauce. Very few
other places I have ordered from know this.

[bebopper]

I've learned to order a cheesteak (american) with sauce instead of
asking for a pizza steak. You're pretty safe at a place like Jim's
where there is no oven, but it's always better to just avoid the
confusion, as you say ...

- bebopper

Post by ADC69

Post by Exile on Market Street
I will only point out that once that last ingredient is added to the
mix, you no longer *technically* have a "cheesesteak", you have a "pizza
steak."

Not at all. Pizza steaks and cheese steaks w/ sauce are 2 totally different
animals. I like my cheesesteaks w/ sauce, with AMERICAN cheese, and the roll
untoasted. When I order a steak with sauce at an unfamiliar place and they say
a pizza steak, I immediately say forget the sauce, otherwise I usually end up
with a steak with mozz cheese, sauce, and a hardened roll right from the oven.
Dalessandro's and Fiesta know how to make a cheese steak w/ sauce. Very few
other places I have ordered from know this.

[ADC69]

Post by bebopper
I've learned to order a cheesteak (american) with sauce instead of
asking for a pizza steak. You're pretty safe at a place like Jim's
where there is no oven, but it's always better to just avoid the
confusion, as you say ...

I always order by saying a steak w/ American and sauce. Then, if the person
taking the order says, oh, a pizza steak, I tell them never mind. If I wanted a
pizza steak, that is how I would have ordered it.

[bebopper]

At that point, I'd probably tell them to call it what they want, but
don't DARE pop the S.O.B. in the oven and dry out a perfectly good
roll <g>. (Assuming they have perfectly good rolls to begin with.)

Another topic - Amorosos seem to be the "gold standard", bit
lots of places tell me they go stale quickly. Any other favorite
rolls ?? I personally love Conshohocken bakery rolls ...

There used to be a pizza shop in West Norriton called "Shads"
that burned down, (probably from refusing to buy cheese from the local
mob). They had a custom roll called a "Shad Stick" which was a very
slender, moist chewy bread with a thin, but dark crust. I still hear
the term used once in awhile, but never see the same form factor in a
roll. It was great because you didn't have to open your mouth like a
whale to shovel in the cheesesteak. I think John Kerry would have
loved them (if they would have served Swiss <g>.)

Cheers,
Bebopper

Post by ADC69
I always order by saying a steak w/ American and sauce. Then, if the person
taking the order says, oh, a pizza steak, I tell them never mind. If I wanted a
pizza steak, that is how I would have ordered it.

[Warren H. Prince]

Post by Steve Wertz
On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 21:44:14 GMT, "Dusty Rhodes"

Everything you've seen is wrong. Unlike you, I have actually been to both
Pat's and Jim's. Many times. And about 100 other places in Philly. IOW,
having direct experience, I don't have to rely on what a bunch of goofs on
Usenet think.

Yes. Hundreds of pages and posts written by people in Philly are
wrong and you are right.

What people wrongly think is provolone is really white (un-dyed) American
cheese. Very common on the east coast. And unless cheese whiz now comes in
steam table pans and is poured on with a ladle, it's Velveeta, not Cheese
Whiz.

Cheez Whiz is almost the consistency of Velvetta. It needs to be
heated to be pourable/dipable.
Can anybody in Philadelphia help us out here? Is it Cheez Whiz,
or Velvetta? Is provalone an acceptable cheese?
BTW, the A&W Rootbeer stands here in Austin are advertising
"Philly-style" hot dogs and hamburgers. What constitutes a
Philly-style hot dog or hamburger?
-sw

Having seen this fight on many newsgroups, I think the easiest approach
is to consider there to be two different types of cheesesteaks, the
Philly cheesesteak and an Italian cheesesteak. I, personally, have no
taste for the Philly cheesesteak although it has many religious
followers. The Italian cheesesteak again has many variations.
Generally, you start with raw onions (Philly style the onions are
usually cooked separately) and place the meat on top. You then
chop/shred the meat and onions at the same time as it cooks. At this
point, there's another fork in the road. Some believe that the cooked
meat and onions are now put in a roll, and if you want to add sauce,
it's considered a pizza steak. Others like to add sauce to the meat and
onions, letting the sauce cook into the meat a little. That's my
favorite. Generally the cheese is added while the meat is still on the
griddle so it can melt a bit. Here, there are three variations,
American cheese, Provolone, and Mozzarella.

I prefer the sauce on the grill with Provolone, and of the Provolone
options. The New Yorker brand of Provolone has the best taste IMHO.

[meow_mix]

Post by Warren H. Prince
Having seen this fight on many newsgroups, I think the easiest approach
is to consider there to be two different types of cheesesteaks, the
Philly cheesesteak and an Italian cheesesteak.

I'll go one further and say that there are three kinds, and I prefer the
Austin cheesesteak out of all of them :D

[Steve Wertz]

On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 09:57:48 -0500, "Warren H. Prince"

Post by Warren H. Prince
Having seen this fight on many newsgroups, I think the easiest approach
is to consider there to be two different types of cheesesteaks, the
Philly cheesesteak and an Italian cheesesteak. I, personally, have no
taste for the Philly cheesesteak although it has many religious
followers. The Italian cheesesteak again has many variations.
Generally, you start with raw onions (Philly style the onions are
usually cooked separately) and place the meat on top. You then
chop/shred the meat and onions at the same time as it cooks. At this
point, there's another fork in the road. Some believe that the cooked
meat and onions are now put in a roll, and if you want to add sauce,
it's considered a pizza steak. Others like to add sauce to the meat and
onions, letting the sauce cook into the meat a little. That's my
favorite. Generally the cheese is added while the meat is still on the
griddle so it can melt a bit. Here, there are three variations,
American cheese, Provolone, and Mozzarella.

Where do mushrooms and bell peppers fit into this, if at all?
Most places seem to offer these as options, grilled along with
your onions and meat.

-sw (from Pittsburgh - hardly any PCS's even that close)

[Warren H. Prince]

Post by Steve Wertz
Where do mushrooms and bell peppers fit into this, if at all?
Most places seem to offer these as options, grilled along with
your onions and meat.
-sw (from Pittsburgh - hardly any PCS's even that close)

Sweet peppers, hot peppers, and mushrooms are all common additions to
the Italian steak, but I can't speak to the Philly steak... And then,
of course there's three versions of sweet peppers, fresh grilled bell
peppers, jars of bell pepper strips, and bell pepper strips in a sweet
brine. The plain pepper strips are really bland IMHO, and either of the
other two add another dimension to the sandwich... With mushrooms, too,
you'll find some shops sauteing fresh mushrooms, some using canned, and
some sauteing the canned mushrooms to add a little flavor.

As with many things in cooking, there are quite a few variations, and
thus the dispute over which is best. My favorite comes from a pizza
shop that uses it's pizza dough to make fresh rolls, uses the sauce on
the griddel version, with New Yorker provolone cheese. The fresh sauted
mushrooms and/or peppers are nice additions ;) My wife goes for the hot
peppers, and prefers them added to the sandwich while still on the
griddle, where they can be chopped up and blended into the sandwich.

[s***@temple.edu]

Post by Warren H. Prince
Sweet peppers, hot peppers, and mushrooms are all common additions to
the Italian steak, but I can't speak to the Philly steak... And then,
of course there's three versions of sweet peppers, fresh grilled bell
peppers, jars of bell pepper strips, and bell pepper strips in a sweet
brine. The plain pepper strips are really bland IMHO, and either of the
other two add another dimension to the sandwich... With mushrooms, too,
you'll find some shops sauteing fresh mushrooms, some using canned, and
some sauteing the canned mushrooms to add a little flavor.

I really do not see the different between an Italian cheesesteak
and a Philly cheesesteak. I belive you said the onions are cooked
with the meat in an Italian cheesesteak, but that's also true of
many Philly cheesesteak shops, including the famous Pat's, if I
am not mistaken. The guy cooking the steaks just dumps some steak
on the hot griddle, cooks it a few seconds, dumps some fried onions,
and then cooks the meat and onions some more and stirs the mixture
around on the griddle during the cooking process.

[Exile on Market Street]

Post by s***@temple.edu
I really do not see the different between an Italian cheesesteak
and a Philly cheesesteak. I belive you said the onions are cooked
with the meat in an Italian cheesesteak, but that's also true of
many Philly cheesesteak shops, including the famous Pat's, if I
am not mistaken. The guy cooking the steaks just dumps some steak
on the hot griddle, cooks it a few seconds, dumps some fried onions,
and then cooks the meat and onions some more and stirs the mixture
around on the griddle during the cooking process.

If I understood the earlier post correctly, the difference is this:

The onions are as raw as the steak at the start of cooking for an
Italian cheesesteak, and they are cooked beneath the meat.

The onions on a Philly cheesesteak are often fried separately and added
to the mix after the steak has cooked partially.
--
-----------Sandy Smith, Exile on Market Street, Philadelphia----------
Managing Editor, _Penn Current_ / ***@pobox.upenn.edu
215.898.1423 / fax [phone] / http://pobox.upenn.edu/~smiths/
Got news? Got events? Got stories? Send 'em to ***@pobox.upenn.edu
If you see this line, the opinions expressed are mine, not Penn's

"I keep telling my husband, 'How bad is that? [Tim] Russert's not
getting it two times a day.'"
--Comedian/talk-show co-host Ali Wentworth, on reassuring hubby
George Stephanopolous that her remark about their marriage ("Do you
know of many strained marriages that make love twice a day?") was not
---------------all that scandalous (_Philadelphia Inquirer_ 9/30/03)--

[s***@temple.edu]

Post by Exile on Market Street
The onions are as raw as the steak at the start of cooking for an
Italian cheesesteak, and they are cooked beneath the meat.
The onions on a Philly cheesesteak are often fried separately and added
to the mix after the steak has cooked partially.

Usually, but not always. I think I see your point though.

[s***@temple.edu]

Post by Steve Wertz
Where do mushrooms and bell peppers fit into this, if at all?
Most places seem to offer these as options, grilled along with
your onions and meat.

On a Philly cheesesteak, mushrooms are a perfectly respectable
option. At many Philly cheesesteak places, they have those little
Italian hot peppers as a free condiment right next to the ketchup
and other condiments. I am not a big fan of peppers so I never
put them on a Philly cheesesteak, but I do like mushrooms on mine
and the proper way to do it is to put the mushrooms on the meat
as its cooking, or just when its done and the mushrooms have to
be the kind that comes out of a can.

[Steve Wertz]

Post by s***@temple.edu
but I do like mushrooms on mine
and the proper way to do it is to put the mushrooms on the meat
as its cooking, or just when its done and the mushrooms have to
be the kind that comes out of a can.

Eastern mushooms, I call 'em. Any respectable Italian, pizza, or
sandwich shop East of the Mississippi always uses *canned*
mushrooms.

West of the Mississippi they use these Gawd-awful fresh mushroom
shavings that always turn me off. There's nothing that can match
the texture of a canned mushroom.

Peppers, OTOH, have to be be red, whether grilled or as a
condiment. Any 'green' peppers suck, IMO.

-sw

[Exile on Market Street]

Post by Steve Wertz

Post by s***@temple.edu
but I do like mushrooms on mine
and the proper way to do it is to put the mushrooms on the meat
as its cooking, or just when its done and the mushrooms have to
be the kind that comes out of a can.

Eastern mushooms, I call 'em. Any respectable Italian, pizza, or
sandwich shop East of the Mississippi always uses *canned*
mushrooms.
West of the Mississippi they use these Gawd-awful fresh mushroom
shavings that always turn me off. There's nothing that can match
the texture of a canned mushroom.

Given that Kennett Square, Pa., is the mushroom capital of America and
the source of most of the *fresh* mushrooms sold in the East (I don't
know about the country as a whole), I don't quite get the "Eastern
mushroom" distinction for canned.

But it's true -- there are some things where fresh mushrooms are simply
no substitute for canned. And vice versa (stir-fries, for one).
--
-----------Sandy Smith, Exile on Market Street, Philadelphia----------
Managing Editor, _Penn Current_ / ***@pobox.upenn.edu
215.898.1423 / fax [phone] / http://pobox.upenn.edu/~smiths/
Got news? Got events? Got stories? Send 'em to ***@pobox.upenn.edu
If you see this line, the opinions expressed are mine, not Penn's

"I keep telling my husband, 'How bad is that? [Tim] Russert's not
getting it two times a day.'"
--Comedian/talk-show co-host Ali Wentworth, on reassuring hubby
George Stephanopolous that her remark about their marriage ("Do you
know of many strained marriages that make love twice a day?") was not
---------------all that scandalous (_Philadelphia Inquirer_ 9/30/03)--

[Warren H. Prince]

Post by Exile on Market Street
Given that Kennett Square, Pa., is the mushroom capital of America and
the source of most of the *fresh* mushrooms sold in the East (I don't
know about the country as a whole), I don't quite get the "Eastern
mushroom" distinction for canned.
But it's true -- there are some things where fresh mushrooms are simply
no substitute for canned. And vice versa (stir-fries, for one).

Like anything else.... it's a function of how they're prepared. We used
to slice them, boil to remove the liquid from them, and then sautee in
olive oil and garlic. Add some chopped parsely just before they're done....

[Exile on Market Street]

Post by Steve Wertz
Peppers, OTOH, have to be be red, whether grilled or as a
condiment. Any 'green' peppers suck, IMO.

Another interesting regional distinction:

West of the Mississippi, the distinction between red and green peppers
is much less important than the distinction between bell peppers
(whether green or red) and all others.

Red bell peppers *are* sweeter than green ones, however, so the color
distinction is non-trivial.
--
-----------Sandy Smith, Exile on Market Street, Philadelphia----------
Managing Editor, _Penn Current_ / ***@pobox.upenn.edu
215.898.1423 / fax [phone] / http://pobox.upenn.edu/~smiths/
Got news? Got events? Got stories? Send 'em to ***@pobox.upenn.edu
If you see this line, the opinions expressed are mine, not Penn's

"I keep telling my husband, 'How bad is that? [Tim] Russert's not
getting it two times a day.'"
--Comedian/talk-show co-host Ali Wentworth, on reassuring hubby
George Stephanopolous that her remark about their marriage ("Do you
know of many strained marriages that make love twice a day?") was not
---------------all that scandalous (_Philadelphia Inquirer_ 9/30/03)--

[s***@temple.edu]

Post by Steve Wertz
West of the Mississippi they use these Gawd-awful fresh mushroom
shavings that always turn me off. There's nothing that can match
the texture of a canned mushroom.

West of the Mississippi is a moot point as far as Philly cheesesteaks
are concerned since Philly is east of there.

[Andrew Fenton]

Post by Steve Wertz
Can anybody in Philadelphia help us out here? Is it Cheez Whiz,
or Velvetta? Is provalone an acceptable cheese?

Just to add another layer to this debate, I'd argue that the true Philly
sandwich- as opposed to those we export to tourists and foreigners- is not the
cheesesteak, but roast pork with greens. Which should be made with sharp,
aged provolone.

Post by Steve Wertz
BTW, the A&W Rootbeer stands here in Austin are advertising
"Philly-style" hot dogs and hamburgers. What constitutes a
Philly-style hot dog or hamburger?

The general rule is that anything labeled as "Philly" or "Philly-style",
isn't. Cf. the abomination that is Domino's "Philly Cheesesteak Pizza."

-Andrew

[s***@temple.edu]

Post by Andrew Fenton
Just to add another layer to this debate, I'd argue that the true Philly
sandwich- as opposed to those we export to tourists and foreigners- is not the
cheesesteak, but roast pork with greens. Which should be made with sharp,
aged provolone.

Post by Steve Wertz
BTW, the A&W Rootbeer stands here in Austin are advertising
"Philly-style" hot dogs and hamburgers. What constitutes a
Philly-style hot dog or hamburger?

So are McDonalds in the Philly area. I tried a Philly cheesesteak from
McDonalds when I was down in Wildwood last summer with a friend. We
split it just to appease our curiosity. The steak sandwhich wasn't
bad, but it came with onions. There was no option NOT to get it with
onions. Not being much of an onion eater, this was a big turn off to
me, although there were so few onions anyway that the steak was edible.

I try not to order Philly cheesesteak sandwhichs when I am far from
Philadelphia. About sixty miles is my limit, but I broke that rule a
few years ago when I was wondering around Stanford University during
a visit to that area. I found the student cafetaria. It was around
12:30 in the afternoon so I went in. The special of the day was a
Philly cheesesteak. Curiosity got the better of me. What I got was
a french roll sliced parallel to the plate, not vertically, and inside
was sliced roast beef, some kind of French cheese I could not quite
identify and sliced raw green peppers. This sandwhich tasted quite
good, it was cheap, but it was no Philly cheesesteak!

[Fred]

On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 15:24:16 -0400, Andrew Fenton

Post by Andrew Fenton
Just to add another layer to this debate, I'd argue that the true Philly
sandwich- as opposed to those we export to tourists and foreigners- is not the
cheesesteak, but roast pork with greens. Which should be made with sharp,
aged provolone.

I was in the Philly area a few months ago and the guy I was workinh
with , a Philly area native, took me to a bar in the Washington Park
area and we had Roast Beef sandwiches. I do not remember if they had
a special name but they were roast beef and brown gravy on a kaiser
roll. Very messy but good. He indicated to me that this was what he
thought of as the regional specialty sandwich.

I also had a Philly Cheesesteak sandwich at Tony's in Ridley Park. I
had is with Grilled onions and Swiss cheese. The propriator Tony did
not think Swiss was strange it was a choice on the menu (Chaulk
board). It was quite good!


Fred...